David Brooks and E.J. Dionne — Sinfulness, Hopefulness, and the Possibility of Politics

In a live discussion at Washington University in Saint Louis, Krista Tippett converses with columnists David Brooks and E.J. Dionne about the interplay of politics, religion, and morality in a moment of tumultuous political climate. Brooks and Dionne, known for their ideological sparring in public media, are invited to reflect deeply on the moral dynamics that citizens must reckon with post the November 8th election. The conversation begins with a look back at their last meeting in 2009, a time marked by the transition from a conservative evangelical president to Barack Obama, who admired the public theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. The shift in years since then has been stark, with public theology and the understanding of the human condition through a religious lens being central to both Brooks' and Dionne's evolving thought processes.

Dionne recalls his upbringing and political evolution, influenced by the social teachings of Catholic tradition and figures like Martin Luther King Jr. He emphasizes the inseparability of religion and politics in his worldview, critiquing the notion of their separation. Brooks, on the other hand, discusses his journey towards a more profound religious sensibility, citing personal experiences of grace, love, and awareness of moral mediocrity. He shares how these experiences have made theological understanding a crucial explanatory tool for him.

As the conversation moves to the current political landscape, both speakers lament the diminished role of religion in public life, which has led to a society that is 'over-politicized and under-moralized.' They express nostalgia for a time when public theologians like Niebuhr and Heschel brought a moral conversation to the forefront, something sorely missing in today's discourse. The discussion touches upon sinfulness, with Brooks and Dionne exploring how the concept of sin is both individual and social, and how it's deeply intertwined with politics and the pursuit of the common good.